Final Fantasy XVI is an achievement for the long-running franchise, in both gameplay and narrative. It will go down as one of the best Playstation 5 games. But, for years to come, people will debate its conclusion. Did Clive and Joshua live or die? The cool thing about this discussion is that so much depends upon whether or not someone played through the side quests and how that factors into XVI main theme.
To be direct: we have a lot of indicators that Clive lives but no real and true confirmation.
The evidence for Clive living
The evidence for Clive living is scattered throughout the game. Some at the beginning, as part of the main story. Some at the end, as part of the side quests.
During the prologue portion, the flashback sequence with Clive’s journey to Phoenix Gate, there’s a conversation between Clive and Jill the evening before the fateful Night of Flames.
Jill: You’re going with them, aren’t you?
Clive: I am Joshua’s Shield. I’m sworn to protect him. He takes too many risks. I only wish I could save him from himself.
J: Clive. You…
C: I have another mission, too. Father has given me my first command.
J: Well, if you’re not going to pray to Metia for your safe return, I shall just have to do it for you. [She prays and a tear runs down her cheek].
Metia is the burning red star that’s right next to the moon. It’s a focal point many times throughout the game. With lore even talking about it being a messenger to the moon and that people make wishes on it. So it’s been framed in the story as not only wish granting but directly linked to Jill’s prayers for Clive to return home safely.
At the very end, after Clive defeats Ultima and maybe dies on a beach somewhere, there’s the sequence with Jill and Torgal. Jill notices the faithful hound looking out the window, up at the night sky. We see the moon and Metia burning brightly. Then the red star winks and dims. Jill begins to cry. She and Torgal run outside. We know that Dominants have some sense of one another’s aether. So the winking out of Metia seems to coincide with Jill losing that feeling of Clive, which is why she’s suddenly heartbroken. On the deck, Torgal howls at the moon while she sobs. Pretty strong signs that they recognize Clive’s gone.
Except when the sun rises, the tone changes. Jill sighs and looks almost relieved? Immediately after that, we hear Clive’s voice say, “And thus…did our journey end.”
For those who only focused on the main story and avoided the side quests, that conclusion seems pretty definitive. The trophy for beating the game is even called “Fallen Star”.
The twist on this is two-fold.
One of the final side quests in the game is with Harpocrates, the Hideaway’s resident loremaster. “A Tail to Tell” is only unlocked after completing another random side quest called “An Inconvenient Truth”. It’s seemingly innocuous as you’re just reconnecting Harpocrates with Dion. But at the end of it, Harpocrates gives a Stolas Quill to Clive and says, “‘Tis said that an owl’s feathers are steeped in the wishes it hears over its long lifetime, all those words just waiting to pour out onto the page. So consider this my wish for you. That one day, you may put down your sword, and pick up that pen.”
Clive’s response? “Well, when that day comes, I’ll certainly have a lot to write about.”
Then the absolute final side quest is called “Priceless” and needs you to complete two other quests to unlock. In this one, Clive wants to do something nice for Jill and recalls how, when they were kids, they had tried to run off to see a field of snow daisies only for it to storm. They never made it. So Clive finds this beautiful path of flowers on a cliff overlooking the ocean. There, the two reminisce about their childhood and bond over their present and future. It’s very lovey dovey. But there’s an important bit of dialogue.
Jill: Before we broke camp, the morning after the storm, do you know what I did? I slipped away from my governess to climb the tor. And from there I saw a sea of petals, all reaching for the sun. And I realized that no matter how terrible the night…dawn would always come. That you…that you would always come for me. And you have. Again and again.
It’s these side quests that have caused people to re-think Clive’s fate.
The first because it gives context to the opening monologue. It’s Clive narrating: It was Moss the Chronicler who said that the land of Valisthea is blessed in the light of the Mothercrystals. And that it was this light which finally led our forebears out of the darkness. Yet what they saw in the light gave rise to temptation. Temptation that ever lures us back into the crystals’ shadow. And thus did our journey begin.
It could just be a completely meaningless artistic choice to have Clive narrate an intro and outro. But…when the team puts in a side quest that directly suggests that Clive stops fighting and becomes an author and tells the story of what happened—it’s begging you to read the voiceover as the beginning and end of Clive’s book and that the entire game we just played was a visualization of the text. Meaning that Clive lived to write the very book he was narrating.
Then the side quest with Jill expands Clive’s fate from Metia to include the sun. It isn’t just that Jill prays at night. It’s that she prays at night, then, inevitably, like the dawn, Clive returns. This time, because Metia winked out, and because she could no longer feel Clive’s aether, Jill feared the worst. Except, there’s no more aether in all of Valisthea. That’s what Clive used Ultima’s power for. To put an end to magic and Dominants and the whole thing. If it all disappeared, that would explain why she and Torgal suddenly couldn’t sense his aether.
But what about the Curse? When Clive’s on the beach, we see that his left hand has started to turn to stone. This is the price of aether on the human body. Over the course of the game, we saw many Bearers succumb to the curse. Dominants weren’t as affected by it unless channeling a tremendous amount all at once (see Hugo Kupka). Which is what Clive did by using Ultima’s power. The implication is that the Curse will spread and fully petrify Clive.
That could happen.
But we don’t know that it will. Or did. Especially given the fact that aether is gone from the world.
There are a number of dualities in XVI. The Bearers being slaves is a microcosm of the game’s larger story about fate and people breaking free from Ultima’s control. We see the same thing between the Curse and the Blight. The Curse is a microcosm of the plague-stricken continent. By ending magic and aether, Clive prevents the Blight from continuing to spread, thus providing Valisthea with a future. If that same duality holds up, then we should expect the same to be true for Bearers and the Curse.
The post-credit scene ends up as a dovetail of these two things.
We see that Valisthea is just fine. Lush, even. Given how much land the Blight had claimed, the implication here seems quite clear—Clive succeeding in ending it.
And that there is a book called Final Fantasy by Joshua Rosfield. Obviously, it being Joshua and not Clive throws a bit of a wrench in the theory. Why would Clive write it under Joshua’s name? And if Joshua lived and wrote it, why wasn’t he narrating the beginning and end of the game? Those are good questions that we don’t seemingly have great answers for. The simplest answer is that both lived and Clive just didn’t want to publish it under his name. Or that Clive lived and used Joshua’s name to honor his brother.
The counter argument there would be that Joshua had spent a lot of time researching and writing theories. It would have been easy for someone to collect those and publish them. But then why have the discussion of Clive becoming a writer? And why have him narrate? If the character doesn’t live, you don’t do things like that. So why not make it more definitive?
The true meaning and ending of Final Fantasy XVI
I love this so much. Okay.
In the final fight with Ultima, the major difference between the two is that Ultima is alone and Clive has the support of many people. This comes up throughout the fight. And is even embodied when the two have showdowns with Eikon powers. Both channel Garuda and use the same attack. Except Clive hears the voice of one of his loved ones cheering him on. When they use Ramuh, we hear Cid’s voice. Etc. etc.
Now when we zoom out and look at the game itself, you have the main story then a ton of side quests. How many side quests? 76. That’s right. Seventy-six. If you want the best weapon in the game? You have to do a series of four side quests related to Blackthorne the blacksmith. Want some of the best accessories like Berserker Ring and Genji Gloves? You have to earn renown. How do you earn renown? Side quests. Want your potions to heal more? Complete side quests. Want backstory on characters and events? Side quests.
All of the nuance in Final Fantasy XVI you gain through side quests. And what are most of the side quests? Clive helping people.
Which can seem silly, right? The world is about to end yet he’s running off to collect some rare flowers for the green thumbs on the lower deck of the Hideaway. Or going to Northreach to pick up some fabric to make new clothes for some of the kids. Or helping in local politics. Most of the side quests feel very silly. But they all come back to one thing—helping others and forming connections. And by the end of the game, we see the difference Clive makes, especially as these side quests build on one another. He not only saves lives but helps many people forge new paths forward. There’s something really beautiful and inspiring about that message. Take the time to help others and the world changes for the better.
But that also comes back to the game itself. If someone plays Final Fantasy XVI and skips the side quests, they have a legitimately different experience with the game. The ceiling is lower. They have less powerful equipment and accessories. They’ll have less experience and ability points so will be generally weaker than someone who does the side quests. And they’ll have a significantly reduced understanding of the world, the characters, and the events that occur over the course of the game. Taking the time to help all of those characters via the side quest yields a far richer and rewarding experience.
Which brings us right back to the ending. It’s the same thing. Engage with the game on the most superficial level and you get a conclusion that reads far more bittersweet. But when you spend the time helping others, connecting with others, building out Clive’s relationships with others, the very thing that makes the difference in the fight with Ultima, you have the knowledge and experience to understand the nuance and implication of the conclusion that point toward a happier fate. It’s quite a powerful and masterful narrative choice to make it so Schrödinger. Especially since it embodies the story’s main theme so beautifully.
This would also bring us full circle. At the end of the prologue, everyone thought both Clive and Joshua had died that night at Phoenix Gate. Only for both to have, miraculously, survived. Here we are, once again, thinking that the two are gone. How Rosfield Boys of them to find a way to, like the Phoenix, endure.
The counterpoints
Even though people think that Jill had a change of demeanor because Clive must have appeared, it doesn’t seem like she’s looking at someone. Rather, her gaze feels very much on the sun. You would imagine if Clive just appeared in the lift at the entrance that she’d yell or run to him, that Torgal would bark or run to him.
Also, remember that Ultima had blighted the sky. For that whole final stretch of the game, things were pink-purple and cloudy and depressing. There really wasn’t a typical sky or sunrise or anything like that. So Jill’s reaction could simply be to the fact that Clive had brought back the dawn. She was getting to see the sun and blue sky for the first time in days? Weeks? Months? Which would point to Clive’s spiritual/metaphorical presence moreso than his actual living one.
The counterpoint to the counterpoint would simply be that because they already established the connection between Clive returning like the sun at dawn that we don’t need to see it. And it doesn’t have to happen right then and there. Just that we know, like Jill, that it will happen.
The truly megabrain reading
I imagine there are some people, like 12 people, who will argue that the whole game was just a text in a book of fiction and nothing we saw really happened. That it was, like the mother in the post-credit scene tells her son, “a silly story” and a “fairy tale”. Even if that was the case, it’s still a reminder of how inspiring and meaningful stories are, how fiction can shape and affect us. Especially this one with its parable about the power of human decency, kindness, and hard work.
Wait, what about Joshua?
We’re told that the Phoenix power can heal the body but can’t reverse death. So Joshua couldn’t, for instance, resurrect Cid. But if he had been a few minutes earlier, he maybe could have healed Cid. People have pointed to that as the reason why Clive, at the end, didn’t bring Joshua back to life.
Except. Clive has, for that brief time, Ultima’s power. The power of a god. If there was ever a time someone could break the rules and pull of a resurrection, it’s then.
With that said, Clive does immediately incinerate everything around him. So if he had raised Joshua, he then razed Joshua. Which is kind of funny.
Broadly speaking, I think it make sense for Joshua to live. And that we have enough evidence. From the healing Clive does, to the book with Joshua’s name, to the fact that he already “came back” once before and is the Phoenix after all.
It’s just when looking at the logistics of that moment that it’s a bit silly. Clive resurrects Joshua only to immediately unleash a sky-piercing inferno that destroys the sky island they’re on? Meaning Joshua had to survive the inferno, then survive the fall, then survive floating unconscious on the ocean, then make it home. It is a video game, so that’s possible. Clive just did the exact same thing (though imbued with Ultima’s power).
So even though I think we’re supposed to take away that Joshua survived, the actual details of the scene feel a touch sloppy or overlooked. Having Clive teleport Joshua somewhere else probably ruins the vibe of suspense. Same with casting a protective bubble over him. So it seems like one of those situations where the writers had to choose between ambiguity and logic and opted for ambiguity.
Ummmm…..they 100% all died. SE even confirmed as much after releasing the rising tide dlc. Lmao. Smh.
Nothing was renewed like you said. Literally all that happened is clive still had the Phoenix’s power and had more of it since Joshua gave it fully to clive (akin to what he had done to every other eikon thus far) and Clive used it to heal the gapping hole in Joshua’s chest but it did not revive Joshua. And Joshua alluded to earlier in the game there are limits to the phoenix’s healing powers. Once someone is dead, they are dead. No if ands or buts about it. And then if you cry out shouting “but how did he survive at the start then?!?” Well the game literally says Joshua was on the brink of death but hadn’t yet met it…
And the end literally shows Clive succumbing to “the curse” showing his hand turned stone-like….the curse occurs when anyone uses too much aether for their body to handle. That’s why clive was trying to keep Jill from over exerting herself all game long.
Dude re think your logic. Lol. THIS IS HILARIOUS
99% of the time, when people leave a comment, even if they disagree, it’s great. This is an example of the 1% that’s just really disappointing.
Sony didn’t confirm that after releasing the Riding Tide DLC. From the Gameinformer article. “With it taking place before the game’s finale, I was curious if Clive obtaining Leviathan powers would affect the ending. Yoshida says it won’t and that the ending will remain as is.” Screenrant and others incorrectly reported that that confirmed Clive was dead. But that’s their editorializing and not what was said.
During that same press tour for the DLC, Yoshida, Kurjiraoka (in charge of Rising Tide), and Koji Fox (English localization editor) spoke about the ending to The Gamer. Fox said: “Amongst the dev team, we know the answer—there is an answer.” And then Yoshida said “It’s not for us to say, because we believe that each person is going to take something different from the story. They’re going to feel what they feel, and everyone is going to have their own interpretation of that story. We wanted to have a story that, at the end, brings players hope for the future, for what comes next.”
Yoshida continued: “If some people are going to see [the ending] and say, ‘Okay, Clive is still alive,’ that’s what’s going to bring them hope because he’s going to be able to come back and bring people together. But if people also think, ‘Okay, he sacrifice himself,’ and by sacrificing himself, that’s how he’s going to bring people together and hat sacrifice is what’s important, then that’s up to the player to interpret it in a way that’s going to bring them hope.”
If you have an actual source that SE confirmed “as much” after releasing the DLC, please, share it.
Obviously, the game developers purposefully wrote the ending in a way to allow people to think Clive is alive or dead. Even if there is a right answer like Fox said. You cite Clive succumbing to the curse. But you forget the golden rule of narrative: if a character’s death isn’t shown, then they’re likely not dead. It’s a classic trope. Just because we see his hand turn to stone doesn’t mean the rest of his body will. They specifically don’t show that because they specifically didn’t want to fully close the book on him.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverFoundTheBody
Clive was the most powerful human to ever live. He used way too much aether. But that doesn’t mean he will immediately die. It could be that he simply loses his one arm and will never be the same. Or that the curse will slowly get him over the next 10 years. He’s not like everyone else. So you can’t argue that the curse will affect him the way it did others.
Is there a very valid argument to Clive being dead? Yes. Absolutely. But it’s also intended by the creators for people to believe Clive is alive. My logic is fine lol.
This is so beautifully written! Thank you for all the thought you put into this. I really appreciate your insight and I now feel more hope that – maybe – a happy ending took place.
I have to chime in and glad I found this great entry. As distraught as I am with the ending, I replayed my save file twice and sat through my tears yet again to make sense of what all this chatter was about.
I am convinced Clive didn’t die. He wasn’t seen dying. We saw him losing his power over spent aether from his left arm which he effectively gave up when he channeled Phoenix in that last blast to destroy the final mother crystal. Now… remember what Harpocrates said regarding the quill and the need for “Clive to pen his own story”…?
Did you notice Clive ever being left handed? He wasn’t. He always wielded his sword with his right hand. He would have used a quill the same way.
So, that’s one thing. Furthermore remember the horrible scenes near Martha’s rest where they stumble upon the chapel with the dying bearers? They suffered a long time in that state of gradual calcification. Years even.
Clive isn’t dead. Neither is Joshua. The power of the Phoenix was renewed when it was passed to Clive as his brothers sacrifice and renewed again when Ultima was defeated and Clive literally absorbed all of his power. The fact Clive literally went over and healed every physical wound shows there is every chance and expectation that Joshua is alive as well.
And then we ride the long credit scene where we have a chance to think and we get to the kids playing with a baby “Torgal”. Who wrote that book? Clive was happy to take on pseudonyms throughout the game so why wouldn’t he have done so with the writing of the book? Even if Clive DID die, then Joshua certainly lived because nobody else was there to witness what happened. If it was instead Clive that survived he penned the letter, with his good hand, in Joshua’s stead.
All of this leads me to believe that either one of them or both of them are alive. I have platinum’d this game and my FF catalog goes back to 1994 when FFV was released. I have played every game since and honestly… this ending for FF16 almost made me not want to replay it.
It was too real to world, too painful and somewhat pointless considering how much we’ve invested in a character where Clive gave on behalf of everyone else. To think that comparisons are made between Clive and Cloud are pointless. Clive Rosfield makes Cloud Strife look like a selfish, brooding, petulant asshole.
I any case… I look forward to seeing what SE does with this because they have really upset a LOT of FF players with that ending and a few lazy bonus skins and sword choices aren’t going to cover these wounds.
Loved reading this! Another option would be that both brothers survived and Clive dictated the story while Joshua wrote it. (Particularly since Joshua seems way more bookish than Clive ever did, regardless of what Harpocrates wished, haha! And Joshua wouldn’t be stuck on a sick-bed recovering from an arm amputation, so he’d have to keep Clive entertained somehow!)
On my first playthrough I felt the symbolism really strongly pointed to Joshua surviving. Among “full-circle” themes, Clive’s absolute devotion to Joshua and wish to protect/save him is a really powerful one. How could he ever have a happily-ever-after if he ended up survived and Joshua died?! Haha. It would be way too cruel. The cruelest possible ending, above both live, both die, or only Joshua lives, in my opinion.
(And since Clive survived falling from the sky-island, it doesn’t seem too far-fetched to me that he delivered Joshua through it!) Anyway, thanks for writing this, I enjoyed reading it!
Glad to hear you enjoyed it! Yeah, Clive surviving falling does give weight to Joshua’s ability to do the same. And there’s always the golden rule: if you don’t see the body, then…
He fought Ultima alone . And was able to pen down the details in the book . Think about it .
The only caveat there is we don’t know what’s in the book. If we saw a page and it had exactly what happened, sure. But it could just be a dramatized second-hand account of what happened based on previous stories of Clive’s encounters with Ultima. I’m not saying it is that, just that because we don’t know what’s in the book I don’t want to assume.
An amazing analogy Chris, it’s great to see soooo many people believe in this. As Vivian said “the more people believe in it, belief begets truth”. Also the last line of the game wrote “but when one journey ends…”
That’s sth to hold on to as well.
Thank you! And, yeah, that last line is definitely something to hold on to.
It wouldn’t be the first time Clive took up somebody’s name as his alias. As a counter point to the Joshua counterpoint Clive may have just been trying to see if he could revive him or paying respects to his body, also while Clive may have been a tragic hero Joshua was always been portrayed as very sickly even close to death.
I would also like to point out as somebody else did wolves don’t howl in mourning but to find their pack but whine and moan in sadness.
Lastly the curse was only on his arm that still used a bit of magic before it tapered off this same arm was being used when casting Ultima’s power We didn’t see it on any other body part (well only face and ches visible) but he appeared to only check his hand, and the golden rule: no body/death show no proof of death it’s not an explicit ending like FF10
Btw I heard that 25 years ago people argued in chatrooms about the ending of Fina Fantasy 7 wether humanity survived Holy or not, ending with the sequel movie showing they all survived
This would for sure be a great one to make a follow up movie too, tho the whole thing is already almost one tbh. I love this game, can’t wait for my NG+ play through
Hunter, hey! Yeah, that’s a great point. Taking up an alias is kind of something he does.
That’s a good call about wolf habits. My only counter there would be: did the team making the game know that? I could see them just going with the howl because it’s dramatic and fits the tone, and not necessarily caring/knowing that the howl isn’t something done in mourning. Or they might know that and made that choice because of it. If I ever get a chance to interview them lol.
Yeah, the golden rule holds pretty firmly here!
I wasn’t on the chatrooms 25 years ago, but I did play a lot of FF7 when it came out. And, yeah, I absolutely remember people thinking humanity may not have survived. It didn’t help that a lot of people didn’t watch the after credits scene with Nanaki. YouTube wasn’t a thing either so it’s not like people could easily go watch it if they missed it. So the rumor came about because you had people who didn’t see the after credits scene so weren’t sure if the world survived, much less humanity. Then you had people who saw it but weren’t sure humanity survived because it only showed Nanaki and his kids and not humans and the broken down Midgar. I always thought humans survived but it was just showing that they no longer needed to live in a place like Midgar. That there was a return to living more in-line with the land.
I genuinely enjoyed reading this. It’s very well written and explained very well. I personally want Clive to have lived however, the profound nature of his death would be cheapened somewhat, I would think. Sacrifice is so much in line with his character and seeing as he’s been a tragic hero the entire narrative it makes sense that he is for sure deceased. However, I’m wondering how the new journey stated at the end will occur if Clive is dead. Maybe Jill is pregnant? Maybe Clive isn’t dead? Maybe it’s just a completely new character that has some connection to Cid, Clive, Joshua, or Jill. We’ll know eventually but what I do know is that I immensely enjoyed this game.
I would like to point out that while Clive may have been a tragic hero but it was almost always presented Joshua as sickly and close to death while Clive had a life to look forward too.
I do however love the author’s point that the style of gameplay changes how you view the ending, from bittersweet sacrifice if you did nothing while if you did everything it’s arguably a hopeful ending. If it was intentionally designed that way I would have even more respect for the creators, and I can honestly believe it too now.
Noah! Thank you. And, yeah, there’s that duality there of the heroic sacrifice for the greater good and how fitting that is but also Clive’s will being so strong and his connection to everyone he cares about being so strong that it helps him overcome the need to sacrifice. Which is kind of what Joshua was telling him for the last quarter of the game.
If he is gone, then I’d imagine, as you said, it’s some character with a connection. A descendent of someone is the most obvious thing to do. I honestly kept waiting for some connection to Ivalice and that this was the same world that FF Tactics and XII take place. I don’t think that will be the case but I was waiting lol.